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FaithVsLogic - A Discussion Re: Religion.

I'm going to preface this with a few statements of fact.
1. I am not Christian, though I've given a lot of thought to it.
2. This is a really long post, it's actually a discussion I had today instead of actually, you know, doing work.
3. My comments system appears to be down. Feel free to e-mail or IM me with your thoughts, they'd be appreciated.
4. This came about from a discussion about some new game the developer of the Sims is making that allows you to manipulate evolution itself.

Here goes.

RIO: Okay. I'm a little confused here about Christianity. Did anyone else get formal training in this religion or perhaps even practice/study it now?

I was raised Catholic and was quite devout, I never attended bible school per se (we really didn't have it) but attended catechism classes from like, 12-15 or whatever, then I abandoned it all. Anyway, I remember concetrating almost entirely on the New Testament and Jesus and stuff. So, what's all this focus on God and creationism and punishment and stuff. (which all seems to derive from the old testatment) Have things changed?

CONCEPTION: Not really. But people have always used to the hellfire and brimstone of the old testament against things they don't like.

ME: What's changed is their approach. It used to be they'd say "God Created The Universe!" and someone would respond "Prove it." and they'd blubber around for abit about the Bible. Now they're saying "Evolution is fallible!" and then someone would respond "Well, that's why it's called a theory. Nobody was actually there, it's just the most likely scenario. More likely than somebody waving their hand around and creating the universe out of thin air." And then they say "So you're saying we COULD be right!" And then someone says "No, we're saying you're very very probably wrong." "So evolution COULD be wrong!" "It's a remote possibility." "So we COULD be right!"

... and so on.

Those championing "Alternative Theories" hardly even mention God anymore. It's just "Evolution could be wrong." Which takes the burden of proof off of them and is a lot easier to argue.

That's how I see it happening lately, anyway.

CONCEPTION: That's generally how common sense has been eroded away. News outlets, and now more and more places, now give the minority an equal amount of speaking time/consideration, regardless of it's merit, ala Global Warming scientists who claim it doesn't exist. By been able to stall the talk from even getting to, "This is how it is..." the can avoid doing anything about it.

GRETACIS: Christianity is always about both Old and New Testament. It's just that different sects focus on different parts of the Bible. You may have just zoned out when hearing about it. Old testament is some boring stuff sometimes.

The evolution thing the Christians who are scientists are now trying to use "Intelligent Design" theory, which is that the world is so complex that the chances of all of it happening randomly seems less likely than there being some kind of concentrated guidance, whether it's God, Vishnu, etc.

I think that people too often take evolution as fact, when it is a theory. God creating the world may not be as well evidenced, but it's still possible. People need to be doubtful of all theories, not just the religious ones. I mean, why does everyone think that this century, we FINALLY found the right answers to everything, when all of the past theories have been disproved. Ok, Im done ranting.

Oh, and the game seems like SimEarth or SimLife, but with better graphics and evolution engine. It'll be cool, but now new.

ME: As for: "I mean, why does everyone think that this century, we FINALLY found the right answers to everything, when all of the past theories have been disproved." Let's break that down.

1. Your statement: Everyone thinks that in the past century we've found the right answers to everything.

That's moronic. Nobody here (and I would venture to say probably anywhere) said anything of the sort. I challenge you to find any quote or news article saying we'd found the right answer to everything. Nobody's even said evolution is 100% proven. It's just 1,000 times more likely than the whole God thing.

2. Your statement: "All of the past theories have been disproved."

That's also moronic. The very definition of a theory is that it has neither been proven, nor disproven. If it's disproven (ie: Theory that the universe revolves around the Earth) then it becomes bunk. If it's proven (ie: Newton's laws) they become Scientific Laws.

ME STILL: Then there's the bigger point.

The difference between Evolution and "Intelligent Design" it that the latter has no actual facts behind it.

Yes, Evolution is a theory and could be fallible.
But show me something better.

You can't just run around screaming that Evolution is wrong without providing some sort of alternative. While neither Evolution nor ID have been disproven, the difference between the two is that there is EVIDENCE of Evolution, whereas ID has none whatsoever.

You seem to miss that little caveat.

ME AGAIN: Look, you pointed out that the whole idea behind ID is that "The simplest theory tends to be true."

And at first glance, to compare the two, ID seems simpler.
1. All of creation happened because someone or something made it.
2. Through a lucky fluke, life began in the simplest of manners and over eons and eons of selection, has grown into the whacky thing we now live.

The first seems simpler, no?
Here's why it isn't. Question: Who created the Creator? Answer: Well, nobody created the Creator, the Creator just is. Question: How? Answer: It is impossible to comprehend with our feeble human minds, that's just the way it is and always has been.

So ... what then? How is something created from nothing? If someone created it, then there really wasn't a nothing there in the first place, there was a something. How was that something created? It's a vicious cycle. If there was a higher being who designed the universe, it must have come from somewhere, been created somehow. It must be complex enough to create something already infinitely complex. Another creator? What then?

And then you have the evolution side of things. How is something created from nothing? Chance.

Seems a lot simpler to me.

...

Reina's going to kill me.

CONCEPTION: BTW, the world isn't really all that complex. We have computers that can model the weather, nuclear explosions and other "super complex" items. To say it's too complex that someone must have created it means you haven't been reading your Wireds.

ME: As a disclaimer, I didn't mean for this thread to devolve from the game (neat!) into a discussion regarding creation. And I'll be the first to admit that I've been trying to come around to the other side of things for a long time. But as long as I've gone this far, I might ask anybody here to clarify a few things for me.

To me, Jesus can be divided into two parts, Jesus the Ideals and Jesus the Events/Man. And the first I don't have any problems with, be kind to others, heal the sick, ransom the kidnapped, feed the hungry, all that I am very much for and it sounds great. But the second, that he was actually this dude who got lynched and then came back and who performed all these miracles during his life is so much harder for me to wrap my head around. Where along those lines do you suspend disbelief? How do you just accept it as read?

I've been told that, well, that's the point. You just do. You let go. That's the little thing they call Faith. And having it means you can't have proof, otherwise, it's just called being observant (ie: I have faith that there's a keyboard in front of me. It's not much faith, or even faith at all, because I'm typing on it.) You just say "I need to believe and moreover, I need Jesus and fuck the rest of it (ie: hard evidence), I believe." and BAM that's it.

And it's so terribly simple.

And yet also so difficult.

I have other reasons to want to believe. Reina (Butty) is a devout Catholic, and it sure would make our lives a lot easier if I was too. Also, I've got to admit that I enjoy a. The Community, b. The Repetition of it all (it's very comforting) and c. The Singing (sometimes). And some of the art inspired by Jesus and friends is really really incredibly beautiful. And then there's the whole "Yes, I can appreciate all four of these things without believing," but then there's this girl in the choir at UCR who looks so happy when she's singing about Jesus and how much he's done for her that it's both ridiculous and envying.

But as you can read (in volumes) I have problems with, you know, the logic of it all. If anybody's managed to overcome this, or knows what to do about it, let me know.

Thanks.

RIO: Re: Dig's Evolution vs Creationism debate. Okay, I think I know where I stand. Evolution is a theory but studying theory helps teach logical anyalysis and the relationships between cause and effect as well as basic investigative, inductive and deductive skills. So, Evolutionism should remain in science classes. Creationism does not possess those qualities but has literay structure and could be studied in english classes. Wink

Re: Lil Scorp's post. Actually, no, we never covered the Old Testament. Ever. We used a book called "Good News for Modern Man" which was a compilation of the New Testament books.

Re: Dig's plea for faith/logic balance. I'm an eclectic Buddhist. I don't know how I juggle faith with logic, but I do. There are two things to keep in mind, and perhaps these will help. 1) It doesn't matter if you right or wrong so don't attach an emotion or good/bad qualities to either of these states of mind. Just let them coexist. It's no big deal. 2) The human heart is capable of feeling two contrary emotions at once so why can't we do it intellectually? Or have a feeling and a thought process at the same time?

--

That's it. Anyway. Feel free to throw in your thoughts on the matter.

posted by Doug 4:23 PM

Lazy Days

It is nearly noon and I have yet to make it to work. I'm literally just sitting here at home, with piles of work to do at the office. But the last two days I've worked from 9 am to 11 pm and fuck if I'm not tired. I woke up so hopeful and optimistic this morning too (something I usually do not do) and somehow all of that ... just wasted away. I think I've reached the point where the more I'm asked to do things, the more I say "fuck it." There's a delicate balance, a law of diminishing returns. There's a maximum efficiency level and I've surpassed it.

Some days are like that, I guess. I'll probably still get 8 hours in today, at least. How sick is that. Reina's out of town for the day, so I'll probably stay extra late. You're probably thinking "why would someone put himself through that." Yesterday I made close to $500. Is it worth it? I don't know. I'm only at a 50% payscale too (which means my dad made $500 off me yesterday too). I think I can take a quarter day off from time to time.

This is my life now, folks. Read the news, read a book here or there, play some video games, but mostly sleep and work. 12-15 hours of work, 7-9 hours of sleep. If you do the math, I get an hour or two of leisure time and then everything else is work and sleep.

And there are people who work more than I do.

Well, two people. My dad, and Jason. Jason works all day Saturdays too. At least I'm not drinking heavily or anything. There is that. That counts for something ... I think. And where the hell have my comments gone? They're not showing up anymore. Okay. Time to go.

posted by Doug 11:50 AM

Dialect Survey

Bam. Ridiculously interesting linguistic study. That is all.

posted by Doug 6:17 PM

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